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Bill
20th September 2017, 02:46 AM
New Physics project regarding the speed of sound underwater and factors affecting it. Appears to have been started in April and has progressed enough to be added to the BOINC "Add Projects" list.

Currently has about 570 users and 1500 computers.

I created an account tonight and will watch it for a while and update when I know more.

Bill
Dallas TX

Coleslaw
20th September 2017, 12:48 PM
The admin is addressing the low credits issue.

I've enabled the fixed credit system: 42 credits are granted for each task from now. It should fix the problem.

They are also working on a GPU application as well as optimized applications for CPU.
They got a slow start as they had a few months of no work available. However, the work units have all ran pretty solid for me. Anyone got any thoughts?

Bill
22nd September 2017, 06:12 AM
Like you my 1st 69 work units all ran clean and completed with no errors

Bill

Coleslaw
22nd September 2017, 04:01 PM
A request for inclusion has been posted here: http://www.acousticsathome.ru/boinc/forum_thread.php?id=24#72

Coleslaw
24th September 2017, 12:04 AM
Oleg has given his permission. http://www.acousticsathome.ru/boinc/forum_thread.php?id=24#73

I will begin looking for a time for a stress test challenge.

Coleslaw
24th September 2017, 12:09 AM
Looks like a challenge is already scheduled

https://boincstats.com/en/stats/challenge/team/chat/957

9/28 - 10/5 Ocean of fantasy by Russsia Team. I suggest anyone that wants to stress test to partake in that challenge. No need to make multiple challenges within a single months time.

Coleslaw
2nd October 2017, 01:07 PM
So far things seem to be running smooth. Does anyone have any issues to report?

Beyond
2nd October 2017, 07:28 PM
A few questions/concerns:

1) Any idea how long this project is supposed to last? There's already been 1 "experiment" completed and then nothing until the next version started.

2) What exactly is the purpose? One person asked if it was related to the military and that was denied, but from the main page description it sure looks like it may be military related. Also look at the "founders" and "our team" pages.

3) Looks to be an "alpha" project, apps are only at v0.16.

Coleslaw
3rd October 2017, 09:34 PM
Could you please show where you are getting the impression it is military related other than the one user that asked in the science thread? I've read the description and do not see any implication of such.

I have no idea how long it will last. Perhaps posting that question in their forums?

Alpha project status, Beta status, production status has never been a requirement for DC-Vault. So, that will be up to individuals to decide on whether they feel it is "qualified" to be a fun challenge to include. Many of the projects consider themselves still "Beta projects" but running production work. I know it is a bad list to reference as project admins rarely go to BOINCStats to update their status but https://boincstats.com/en/page/projectStatusInfo

I have had the status descriptor discussion with multiple project admins in the past. General consensus was that most will squat on the "Alpha"/"Beta" title for the project simply to excuse any hiccups with the project while running their entire production work/science on it to the end.

Also, you will find that CSG's, SRBase's, & Universe's applications still have not made it to v1 status https://csgrid.org/csg/apps.php http://srbase.my-firewall.org/sr5/apps.php https://universeathome.pl/universe/apps.php

Beyond
4th October 2017, 01:23 AM
Could you please show where you are getting the impression it is military related other than the one user that asked in the science thread? I've read the description and do not see any implication of such.
Maybe I'm being too suspicious, but this project sounds like it may be geared toward improving detection and communications for use in submarine warfare. From the front page:

"The medium parameters are usually understood as the sound speed profile in water (i.e., the dependence of the sound speed on the depth) and the sound speed and density in the sea bottom sediment layers. Medium parameters reconstruction is of great importance for problems of underwater communication and for the development of underwater navigation systems."

That's perhaps why the question was asked on the forums. Again, maybe I'm being too suspicious, but I sure don't want to be contributing to projects with military goals. I would prefer to see a clear, comprehensive statement outlining the goals and end uses of their research.

Coleslaw
4th October 2017, 01:05 PM
Well... since that is used in non-military activities, I would say it is certainly conspiracy theory level at this time. A lot of marine biologists out there using sub-marine and underwater drone gear. Trying to control those without a cable attached. I'm sure improving communications to your "drone" makes a huge difference. I mean, with this line of thinking, why support PrimeGrid? The military may be using those primes against you as we debate...

Beyond
4th October 2017, 06:39 PM
I mean, with this line of thinking, why support PrimeGrid? The military may be using those primes against you as we debate...
Not a good comparison.

I don't think that it's too much to ask for a clear, comprehensive statement outlining the goals and end uses of their research.

Bill
5th October 2017, 03:25 AM
Well there was a Challenge running that was supposed to end about now. Anyone have any feed back on how it ran ? I am a small guy so the fact that the 259 WU's that I have done with Windows boxes is not all that telling. Yes they all ran error free but I do not have a Linux box.

Bill F

Coleslaw
5th October 2017, 11:50 AM
Beyond, I agree that clarity is important when we have questions. I have not seen you post those concerns at the project yet where they may be addressed. Let us know how that goes.

Bill, I have ran 350k+ points worth of work units thus far. I have yet to find issues with the project. If anyone else has had different results, please post.

Beyond
5th October 2017, 02:08 PM
Beyond, I agree that clarity is important when we have questions. I have not seen you post those concerns at the project yet where they may be addressed. Let us know how that goes.
I haven't joined the project and not sure that I want to given the issue. Maybe it's fine, maybe not. Like the person who asked the question on the forum (or rather 3 who chimed in with seemingly the same concerns), I'm a little suspicious. This type of research would certainly be applicable to military sonar. Whether that's the purpose, only the admins know. If it is, they probably wouldn't admit it though. This is the place to voice concerns about projects, so I did.

Forum link: http://www.acousticsathome.ru/boinc/forum_thread.php?id=9

Coleslaw
5th October 2017, 02:42 PM
Well to be fair, it is also the technology that would highly benefit people fishing, underwater geology/geography, scoping out potential oil reserves in the ocean bed, general recreation, etc... However, nothing presented so far has suggested military application other than a user and a few agreeing for the info. The front page has since been updated and the admin stated clearly

Briefly - we don't deal with military problems, our goal is to study ocean (its water and bottom)

Since there is a language barrier, I'm sure some would read that as meaning "for the time being". However, I personally do not. Does that mean the military couldn't utilize advantages from the science? Possibly. I'm sure every military does this regardless of the scientific intent.

Bill
6th October 2017, 02:51 AM
Well we have some talented volunteers out there. I propose that those with concerns do some Bio searching on the Principals of the project looking for past military work or projects and or anything else that would sway people to be more concerned. If nothing is found then the Innocent until proven Guilty rule might fit.

Another option would be to pose a question to the Principals will the results be open sourced to the scientific community or are they being held for commercial development.

Thanks
Bill F

Coleslaw
6th October 2017, 12:02 PM
One of the team members of the project also was part of Optima@home according to their bio pages.

Bill
9th October 2017, 01:24 AM
Project Optima@home appears to be inactive at this time.

Bill

Coleslaw
9th October 2017, 01:51 AM
It has been for a while. That is why I said "was"...lol.

Coleslaw
10th October 2017, 08:05 PM
Challenge is over. Things ran OK. Does anyone else have any concerns? Beyond, do you think at this time that this concern of yours needs addressed in some way further before they are included?

Coleslaw
13th October 2017, 12:21 PM
A teaser of the potential of a future GPU application. http://www.acousticsathome.ru/boinc/forum_thread.php?id=28#88

Bill
14th October 2017, 01:59 AM
Well the last concern raised was on Oct 5th and the project successfully handled a good challenge.

Do we hold and wait for other concerns or for additional information from those volunteers originally concerned ? Or should a Poll be started for inclusion in the Vault ?

Obviously any cruncher who does not feel comfortable can elect to not work the project.

Bill F
Dallas TX

Rusty
14th October 2017, 03:49 AM
Poll added.

Beyond
14th October 2017, 04:04 PM
Beyond, do you think at this time that this concern of yours needs addressed in some way
Like the 3 people on the forum who expressed concern, I have no proof. Simply a gut feeling. Military ties for this project seem suspicious. Of course they would never admit it if there are. How would we have the resources to obtain proof? I doubt if we have any members from MI6 or the NSA. Vote as you like. I did.

Bill
16th October 2017, 06:19 AM
Found on the Acoustics site a link to an open access paper on their results and what they are working on.

http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1757-899X/173/1/012022/pdf

Bill F
Dallas TX

DigiK-oz
24th October 2017, 07:12 PM
Hmm, I sincerely doubt the usefulness of a poll here, given the very limited amount of people active in the forum (I did not vote yet, since I am sort of neutral on this one).

I respect and share some of the doubts/objections people have. On the other hand, lots of projects have been added in the past because "they met all rules of the vault". Objections like a project being too commercial, not serving any real purpose, etc were all put aside with this reason. Now can someone tell me where this particular project violates vault rules?

We now have a "buffer" of I think 3 projects that are candidates for inclusion. Maybe the best approach would be to allow only 1 project to be added each quarter, and decide on a per-quarter base WHICH project will be added?

Then, for every new project that we find, we decide whether it meets vault rules (well defined). If it does, it is added to the "candidates" list. The top 3 oldest projects on the candidates list then become eligible for inclusion and shortly before a new quarter begins, we decide which of those 3 is added (through discussions, through a poll, or even by rolling a die :) ). This way, the list of vault projects becomes more stable (i.e. not 3 projects included in one month, and then 3 months nothing), and we prevent discussion as to whether a project may or may not be military or otherwise unwanted in nature as it will then probably be voted off in the discussion/poll.

If a project is removed because of it being finished or no longer meeting vault rules, we may or may not have an extra "inclusion discussion/poll" deciding which one of the 3 oldest candidates to replace the project that has been removed.

Coleslaw
25th October 2017, 02:54 PM
The reason I have been given is that the rules we have are merely to be eligible but does not guarantee inclusion. Ultimately it is up to owners final ruling but is highly influenced on what the verbal crowd decide is considered "fun" over all after becoming "eligible". If there is no voicing of such matters, then a project may squeak by uncontested. The reason for the poll is to get a better sense of solid yes or no rather than wish wash answers. I have refrained from voting at this time as I would really prefer it to be decided by non-admins first. Then admins deliberate which right now has very little activity outside myself. Then it is presented to Rusty (and any other owner that actually cares to step in) to ultimately take those suggestions. The more people that voice, the better. Unfortunately, not a lot of people are willing to create an account just to voice their opinion outside their own team forums.

I don't see a problem with adding 3 projects at once. I tend to support the projects whether in the DC-Vault or not. If a team limits their selection based on that, it is their choice to do so. However, it really isn't that hard to play catch up when you are one the top teams and it is a rather new project being added. One of the largest complaints I have heard about the design of DC-Vault is the stagnation. Early on it is easy to move up the ranks, but after all of the easy points have been obtained, it can take a year or more to move up a single spot. Adding new projects seems to bring renewed life and focus from teams that are still interested. The point system is extremely flawed as it is. For example, my team would gain a lot more ground by creating artificial teams at each project and then scoring points with just one work unit each. Thus making the point differential between positions so minute that it isn't worth pushing those projects. Look at SETI now. We have no incentive to put a lot of resources into it for little gain. We could put a fraction of the resources into SRBase or TN-Grid and make heaps more progress for the same resources. The less popular projects in this right become worth more to a team. But if someone were to screw with the system by making a bunch of worthless artificial teams, you could essentially have what you have with FAH. No real difference between 1st place and 10th place in the grand scheme of things....

Also, discussion of rules changes should actually be in its own thread. You will see I posed a similar request here: http://www.team-ninja.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=54436 and that was about 3 years ago. You will find that some of the practices we perform now are a result of those discussions. And example is... getting project admin approval (or at least attempting) before adding a project. That isn't in the rules here but was something I started as a courtesy and is now part of what Rusty wants done.

Bill
26th October 2017, 12:21 AM
The last two tread segments have been more simulating than the whole length or the tread prior to them.

Congratulations to both of you for dusting off the grey matter and giving those few of us looking at the Forum some things to ponder.

Bill F
:)

DigiK-oz
26th October 2017, 08:07 AM
OK, back on-topic then. I voted Yes for this one. I share some of the objections regarding possible military use, but I think there are very many projects that could be used for wrong reasons - basically any science can be used for the wrong purpose. And I think that if the russian (or any) government would want to find out more about acoustics in water (sonar) they could throw a supercomputer at that for much quicker results, and with less effort. So, a yes from me.

Beyond
28th October 2017, 04:20 AM
We now have a "buffer" of I think 3 projects that are candidates for inclusion. Maybe the best approach would be to allow only 1 project to be added each quarter, and decide on a per-quarter base WHICH project will be added?

Then, for every new project that we find, we decide whether it meets vault rules (well defined). If it does, it is added to the "candidates" list. The top 3 oldest projects on the candidates list then become eligible for inclusion and shortly before a new quarter begins, we decide which of those 3 is added (through discussions, through a poll, or even by rolling a die :) ). This way, the list of vault projects becomes more stable (i.e. not 3 projects included in one month, and then 3 months nothing), and we prevent discussion as to whether a project may or may not be military or otherwise unwanted in nature as it will then probably be voted off in the discussion/poll.

If a project is removed because of it being finished or no longer meeting vault rules, we may or may not have an extra "inclusion discussion/poll" deciding which one of the 3 oldest candidates to replace the project that has been removed.
Some good ideas here that might help us avoid some of the less stable and problematic projects.

Bill
18th November 2017, 03:16 AM
Well Acoustics is a Science project that is stable with plenty of work. Stop@hone is Mathematics and is stable with lots of work.
SRBase appears to have work availability issues from time to time.
SourceFinder is not fully stable yet.

We have more Math projects than Physical Science projects at the moment so if Rusty wants to load two then one each. If Rusty wants to do only one then I would vote Physical Science.

Coleslaw
28th November 2017, 05:23 PM
All workunits of the current experiment have been generated. We will start a new experiment soon.

http://www.acousticsathome.ru/boinc/forum_thread.php?id=32#97

Bill
1st December 2017, 03:34 AM
Th project now has 1300+ active users and 1800+ active systems.

I guess we will see the sort of new work is going to be offered. Maybe something less controversial.

Bill F

Bill
28th April 2018, 09:12 PM
The project has posted a URL to their published results "paper"

https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/eng.2017.7.issue-1/eng-2017-0040/eng-2017-0040.xml?format=INT

And the Admin has done an Application update and resumed WU generation after a long period of no real updates or activity.

For what it is worth they have also for some reason added Windows XP coverage. I guess they have some old PC's in Russia ?

Bill F
Dallas TX

Coleslaw
30th April 2018, 01:42 PM
That and the fact that there are a lot of DC people still holding onto it for various reasons. I still run it on some VM's.

Coleslaw
7th May 2018, 08:56 PM
since it has been here in the public for quite a while I went ahead and tossed my vote on.

Bill
8th May 2018, 02:39 AM
Well the votes for inclusion are finally getting a little traction. With POGS going away we have a slot opening up.

Beyond
8th May 2018, 10:51 PM
Admin has done an Application update and resumed WU generation after a long period of no real updates or activity.
Bill, how long was the long period without activity?

Bill
9th May 2018, 04:41 AM
Project was inactive (no WU's) for about 4 1/2 months. During that time the Science documentation and Public release of the original work results was completed.

The current Application appears to be an enhanced version of the original.

Bill F

Beyond
9th May 2018, 02:42 PM
Is there any indication of how long will it be until the next long outage? Also is there any word on the projects duration?

Bill
10th May 2018, 03:40 AM
There is nothing in the news Forums that answers either of your questions.

Taking a leap and reading hopefully the Admin's action that he has released a XP version App. ... "MIGHT" mean that the project will be around awhile and that he "THINKS" that he has enough work to invite more system attachments.

Bill F

Coleslaw
29th May 2018, 01:48 AM
Looks like Rusty got the project added.

Beyond
30th May 2018, 09:30 PM
I can't even get on the www.acousticsathome.ru website. What's going on?

Coleslaw
30th May 2018, 09:49 PM
Not sure. It worked for me last night.

Beyond
31st May 2018, 03:03 AM
Not sure. It worked for me last night.
Still can't connect. Can you? :(

Beyond
31st May 2018, 06:54 PM
Finally got in. Looks like the Vault broke another project, hopefully only temporarily.

Bill
1st June 2018, 03:03 AM
Well the Project is visible again and server status shows good with no backlog.



That said there is no News posting or Forum information regarding the outage. Maybe it was an internet based issue where someone failed to pay for the URL or something else equally as fatal.


Bill F

Beyond
2nd June 2018, 02:13 PM
Shouldn't this project be in Physical Science?

http://www.acousticsathome.ru/boinc/

Bill
4th June 2018, 12:28 AM
That would seem to make sense considering the research they are doing.


Bill F

Coleslaw
15th June 2018, 02:35 AM
Thanks Rusty for getting it moved over to Physical Science

Bill
15th November 2018, 03:53 AM
I haven't joined the project and not sure that I want to given the issue. Maybe it's fine, maybe not. Like the person who asked the question on the forum (or rather 3 who chimed in with seemingly the same concerns), I'm a little suspicious. This type of research would certainly be applicable to military sonar. Whether that's the purpose, only the admins know. If it is, they probably wouldn't admit it though. This is the place to voice concerns about projects, so I did.

Forum link: http://www.acousticsathome.ru/boinc/forum_thread.php?id=9


From the Project Web site here is a link to the work that they show as published and the references listed


http://www.acousticsathome.ru/boinc/publications.php


Bill F

Beyond
15th November 2018, 03:05 PM
Bill, thanks for the info, but that post is from over a year ago. I've posted in this thread 8 times since then.
Still not totally convinced of the project goals but anyway we're running it and I think we're in #4 at the moment.